Saturday 31 October 2009

1153 - Junking my junk

It’s Halloween. Is that why Sainsbury’s
Car park was so darn full, took half an hour
To get out? Daft thing is, can walk with ease
Back home from there, but was burdened with car,
Having taken all the flat’s rubbish far
Away to Pendleton tip, and old clothes
To Oxfam. Cleaned the spare room for Leah
Who was moving in today, now postponed
Till Tuesday, cos I’m out Monday. Got loads
Of my old junk in my bedroom now! She’s
Gotta be impressed with the space for her
Stuff she’ll have in there, though, for all her shoes
And bags and gear. Meantime, I must use these
Next two days to grow musical flowers!

Friday 30 October 2009

1152 - They wanna be elected

The French and Germans don’t want Tony Blair
As the first president of the EU
Maybe we British might think that’s unfair
And it’s a little surprising when you
Remember how he helped the French, renewed
The CAP* subsidy their farmers
Get, while handing back the UK’s. But who
Would trust Blair to look after their affairs?
He let down everybody here for years
Including allies. But who’ll end up there
In the big chair? Next year, will we see blue
Take over the UK map, the Tories
Taking their turn to mismanage? The flair
Has gone from Labour. Dave, over to you…
*Common Agricultural Policy - benefits farmers, many of whom are French, at great cost to the EU's other main contributors, including Britain

Thursday 29 October 2009

1151 - Misty eyes and runny nose

I went back to work, though still with a cold
Because the boss had made me feel guilty
The morning before, when, again, I called
To say I wasn’t well yet (truthfully)
So, no Jeremy Kyle over coffee
But walking to work, mercifully mild
Conditions prevailing. I had to see
The optician after work. I had dialled
Them asking for a new sight test; I told
Them that my sight had got worse on my hols
But that turned out to be illusory
You just notice it more when you’re embroiled
In strange situations. Eye drops were rolled
Into my orbs; now I can barely see!

Wednesday 28 October 2009

1150 - This flu's a swine

My eyes are aching; think I’ve got the flu
My nose has started running badly too
It feels like there is nothing I can do
Unlike yesterday, when, though ill, got through
A lot of tasks. Today, not so, but flew
Through the last pages of a novel you
May have heard of: ‘The Wasp Factory.’ Grue-
Some in places, in many places! ‘Phew,’
I thought, ‘there are some published writers who
Have sicker minds than me!’ Missing a few
Events tonight, but who cares? I’ve a new
Lodger lined up, called Leah. She seems to
Like the flat, and me, presumably. Cue
More money and fun! Well, these things are due!

Tuesday 27 October 2009

1149 - Work done while off sick

I’m getting hungry; made the most of my
Sick day, with a sore throat, not feeling great
Don’t want to infect my colleagues, so I
Phoned in to say I wouldn’t come in late
No, I wouldn’t come in at all! My state
However did enable me to move
Projects on a lot. Managed to create
A full pictorial record of my moves
While on holiday. Managed to remove
My sound recordings, uploaded to my
Computer, in which I mainly narrate
What happened while on holiday. I love
To get things done like this. Also typed my
Song lyrics up. My desk now looks quite neat!

Monday 26 October 2009

1148 - No show

The first potential lodger's not turned up
For her viewing. My spare room is still free
Therefore, should you be homeless, if your cup
Is filled or overflowing with money
To improve my lifestyle, pay off debts. Be
Kind and turn up, next time. This is the best
Option you'll have, a chance for fun, cheaply
Why'd she change her mind? I could get depressed
At being stood up. She was unimpressed
With my voice on her phone when I rang up
Some people like my voice. Oh well, maybe
I'll have to forget her, and show the rest
Around, but it could've been love... Shut up,
Course not! She sounded a bit rough to me...

Sunday 25 October 2009

Sketches of Spain

1.
Deep, inside Spain


I entered you at Valcarlos
I’ve not yet come out again
I’ve been up, down and all around your Picos
So when will you speak to me, Spain?


2.
Señoras como Dolores


You look out the corner of your eye
as you pass by

No wonder, for I
am outside a monastery

A dead giveaway -
here today and gone tomorrow

That’s true of me
but Dolores

it still causes me
sorrow

that I can’t know you
except as this momentary vision

borrowed at great cost
Maybe it’s for the best

How much more
might I have lost

in your fiery prison
 
 
3.
Haiku: Spanish autumn


Evening in the park
Boy kisses his girl loudly
Just before I pass


4.
Alone in Pamplona


No stampede, this time of year
No trampling people underfoot
None of that bullshit
Sampling the goods
Students in floods
Real handful, I bet

I’m tramping along
the streets
of Pamplona
Exploring the historical zone
all alone

But I’m not the only one

No camp-sites
or none known of
Starting to sweat
Damp patches won’t be shown
They’re hid in my armpits

Stamping along
Lost even with a map
Need no more examples
There’s already ample
of my simplicity

Once more I pull
the guidebook from my bag
Just need to find the hostel
before people start smelling me

Indeed, they seem to be telling me
not to ramble too close
unless I’m spending euros

But the symbol of
the Union Jack flows
past on their clothes,
the young scrambling
to let each other know
they’re cool

They’re cool to me too
but sometimes they seem cruel

Mustn’t grumble
I almost stumble on a kerbstone
fumbling with my phone
Nearly took a tumble
that would’ve humbled me even more

That could’ve been a funny story
among the mumbles and the hubbub
of the pub

Freedom to roam
complete freedom
means being alone

I remember I could be home
so I dismember my grumbles
and I amble
up to the cathedral

This was a gamble
for it takes some cojones
to crumble into flakes
the rumble of fakes
phoneys
and moaners
who dissemble
that only an assembly
can take a break
from their own country
for an exploratory
holiday

And what can they
learn anyway

from crumpled napkins
cramped conversation
about humdrum things

for which again they pay
Does it make them feel like someone?

I feel like someone


5.
In Zamora Cathedral


The tapestries in Zamora Cathedral
are remarkable

That’s why they’re there
on show

But what about the people
there to see it all?

They just get in the way
Out of the way, sheep!

Couldn’t you find this place by yourselves?
Instead, you pay to be shepherded

Can’t you go to the toilet by yourselves?
Can’t you even sleep….?

Ah yes, beautiful tapestries
but dead
and therefore dead boring

But there’s no ignoring this guided group
as they stoop under each arch
looking bored

Would they rather be alone and free?
Has the thrill of company gone?

At least they can go for a drink
in their twos and threes

Then they can talk briefly about
what they came here to see

and argue strenuously
about what they’ve bought

Me, I’ve only seconds to interact...

Mmm, nice eyes
looking at me with interest
which I return with interest

The freeze returns
as her guide turns to the frieze

and his drone
echoes up to and all around the dome

We have to stop
weaving around each other
living
invisible
tapestries
 
 
6.
La Mancha


Yellow and brown
Spotted with countless clumps of green

An endless tablecloth
The distant hills are its rumples

It sometimes gets you down
But you can’t just slide off


7.
Santiago Cathedral


Why don’t they scrape off the moss?
Yellow growth covering carved stone
slowly becoming a real-life Gaudí
Or could it be
that without the moss
it would be too gaudy?

Poor beggar women
Have they spent years queuing
to own this doorway?
Have they plotted and poisoned
to sit in your way
besotted with their hungry children
but in no rush to earn more pay?
Are there beggar women in Norway
Or would sitting there be too chilling?
Maybe the law would claw them away
and house them humanely under a ceiling
so they can’t spoil your day

You can’t put your arms around a memory
but you can put them around a statue
For this moment, they queue
St James was never buried here, they tell me
but it’s fun to pretend he was
There’s life in the old apostle yet
if they want to postulate this
preposterous though it is
for if there was no gilded protector
here
there’d be another pretender
for there are plenty in the pilgrim sector
Santiago’s numero uno
that’s clear
but I wonder where we could trek to
next year?
 
 
8.
In a Basque Country garden
(to the tune of ‘In an English country garden’)

All grab your paint pots, only red and white
For your old Basque Country houses

Space your houses quite far apart
All your old Basque Country houses

If you see a stranger
Keep your eyes open
Question what they’re doing

We’re all the same, anti-Spanish as can be
In our old Basque Country houses

1147 - Oh oh no no

Didn’t quite make it out tonight, no no
Wanted to go to the Boar’s Head, yes yes
The reason? My writing went too slow slow
Consequently this evening’s a mess mess
But there’s good in all this, nonetheless less
It’s been nice to relax all day long long
Recovering from the holiday stress stress
Writing poems and lyrics for song song
Read quite a bit, too, and that’s not wrong wrong
Can always go to another show show
There’s plenty more next week, so I guess guess
Have advertised the spare room, was stung stung
By the speed of Leah’s reply, so so
Fingers crossed for tomorrow’s success cess

1146 - Manchester culture for the under-sevens

Went to McDonald’s with Jo for lunch, then
Took her to a Manchester Literature
Festival event at the Whitworth, when
Although we chatted, and raised eyebrows, sure,
Nonetheless she’s now seen, first-hand, culture -
Poetry and Irish music, and seen some
People I know from the scene. The reader
Was Sinead Morrissey, whose petite bum
Was on the seat next to us. Time had come
For us to leave, and end the disruption
Of this august event. Outside, kicked the
Leaves, posed with statues, caught bus to the room
In Central Library where echoes spin
Around the dome with slightest move of chair
Sat 24 October

1145 - Mind, interrupted

A nice relaxing lie-in, radio
Talk gently waking me unhurriedly
A pleasant day, walking to work quite slow
Listening to music on the MP3
At lunchtime the Oils Team stopped, because we
Were heading for the pub to say goodbye
To our team leader; goodbye to Annie
Pint after pint was drunk, yet somehow I
Remained reasonably sober. Now I try
To finish this sonnet. It’s going slow
But I’ve eaten some pasta, drunk coffee
Just seeing out the evening; don’t think I
Can do much more tonight. Am seeing Jo
Tomorrow; first time since my holiday
Fri 23 October

Thursday 22 October 2009

1144 - Views on the muse and the news

Am patiently uploading old pictures
While listening to old music from Roxy
And typing this new sonnet, though my ears
Interfere with the clear workings of the
Muse, Roxy or otherwise. The poxy
Website has updated itself and lost
My old pictures. I hate it. Worse, there’s the
Ironing to come; what a bummer. And worse
Still, no Iron Maiden or Clash songs. Christ,
How can I work in Joe Strummer? The news
Was about BNP at BBC
But there’s still some Time for a Question first,
Before they show the show, and that is where’s
The honour on there? Where’s the honesty?

1143 - Sinatra Sonata

It’s late, about 12:45, but still
That’s not too late to write a quick sonnet
After all, that’s what I must do until
I drop dead; write one every day, if it
Kills me! Work again, but lunchtime concert
At the Bridgewater: Sadie Fields, violin
And Simon Lane, piano, and the treat
Was the Franck Sonata… (That’s confusing -
Sounds like Frank Sinatra! How amusing…)
They also played a Mozart one. That filled
The day nicely, a break from trying to get
Up to date with emails. This evening,
Organising photos and sonnets. Well,
I’ve made progress, and had some online chat!

1142 - Mi casa es mi casa

Saw Biarritz recede beneath the clouds
The white lighthouse whose twinkle I knew well
From lying on the beach at dawn, tired out
Two weeks before. Since then, followed the shell
Trail to Santiago and Portugal
But back home today, back to cold and rain
I wonder if it's been like this, the while
I've been away? Brit weather... still the same!
But what's causing me far more mental pain
Are my finances. Look at my account?
I just don't dare yet. Still under the spell
Of my holiday, my escape. The main
Thing is, I'm back safe. There is still a cloud
While Alex remains lost. Remembering still...
Tuesday 20 October

1141 - Bizarrely written in Biarritz

A pleasant Sunday night in the hostel
In Bilbao. Posted on the internet
And drank six beers. I got on very well
With Lucy, who works there, and also met
Wei from Taiwan. Gave her a lift to next
Port of call, San Sebastian, also
Called Donostia, in Basque. Started to get
Cooler, more cloudy, but still nice. Been so
Lucky with the weather! Then, time to go
Back into France: St-Jean-de-Luz, s’appelle
The first stop; Ciboure, typically Basque, next
To it. Reached Biarritz by four. I know
This place; it’s like home now! Not sure, to tell
The truth, where I might catch some sleep tonight...
Monday 19 October

Sunday 18 October 2009

1140 - They think it´s cold...It is now

A cold night in Villaviciosa
In an industrial estate car park!
Took hours to find even that grim corner
Where sleep could be assured till end of dark
Was glad, therefore, to be up with the lark
And Picos de Europa bound. Saw them
From a distance, but the foothills were stark
Scary enough to drive in... so I went
On to Santander. A magnificent
Breezy, sunny noon visit. The harbour
Buildings, and people, made for a great walk
Not so far to Bilbao. There by two. Spent
Two or three hours exploring. Got beer,
Fags, Internet tonight! Might even talk!!

1139 - Santiago - a tourist trap too far to go

Yesterday evening in Santiago
I was disappointed with it, in parts
It's all commercialised, but then, well, so
Are most tourist places now. Best just start
And finish with the Cathedral, I thought!
Even in the small old town, I got lost
A few times, even with a map! I caught
Some sounds on dictaphone. I passed
An hour with Monika, even played host
Serving soup and chocolate after our go
On the 'Net, of course. The hostel was sort
Of weird, lights out early, quieter than most...
But that's all for the walking pilgrims.
Slow
drive through north Galicia........ Some nice resorts!

1138 - No go in Vigo

Things had been going suspiciously well
Well now, happily, things have evened up
I moved the car nearer to the sea swell
And wandered with my camera to the top
Of the port area. Now time to stop
And return to the car, I thought, but when
I got there it was gone! Was it a trip
Or a trick of the mind? Puzzled, I went
Into the panadería*! The gent
Told me the traffic cops had towed it! Tell
A taxi driver, he will take you up
to the Depósito*. I didn't vent
My anger, because this potential hell
Was alleviated by the locals' help!
*panadería = bread and cake shop
* Depósito = the place where they store impounded cars
Fri 16 October

Friday 16 October 2009

1137 - Portuguese bakery

Hot as an oven down in Portugal
Like a hot English summer day, no less
Woke up in auto, parked in Porto. Well!
The problems I had driving there. The stress!
But found the centre, in the end, and yes,
It was well worth it! Walked round for two hours.
The next stop, Braga, churches and girl-fest.
More students, oh so many pretty flowers!
Viana do Castelo´s big ships tower
Over the harbour, while fishermen trawl
Great beach at Moledo. But roadworks? Less!
Back into Spain. Clocks go forward an hour.
Destination Vigo. Low on petrol
But made it! Now I feel like getting pissed!
Thur 15 October

1136 - ¡Que día!

What a day! Left hostel, Salamanca
Drove northwards through the flat dusty country
Lunched, Morales de Vino. Zamora
Was a lovely surprise. Then I could see
Signs for Bragança, Portugal. Valley
Of the Douro, I love you. Marvellous
Towns and endless wooded ridges. Learned the
Portuguese way of driving. Dangerous!
Could not stop at Vila Real, because
Porto was still far-off. Got there for a
Lovely sunset view of the estuary
Of the Douro, where I´ll spend the night, just
By the river. It´s dark now, but for a
String of orange street lights. Good night from me!
Wed 14 October

1135 - Plaza Mayor, Salamanca

On a stone bench in the Plaza Mayor
I'll write some new poems, top up the tan
American voices I can't ignore
Even worse, British ones! It was my plan
That my tour would avoid them. But how can
I deny them what I claim? Right to roam
Wherever we wish; appreciate those lands
Of other language, squares of yellow stone
More than just paddling fattened toes in foam
I'll take a break from taking snaps. I'll home
In on the sounds as I sit here. Waiter
Clinks coffee cups, some students lying down,
Excited chat. At some distance, a drone
Of voices mingling like crickets. Half-four...
No, half-five already. But still, the sun...

1134 - Sunny Spain indeed

A day ahead of schedule. Slept in car
In a Toledo suburb. Today is
The national day of Spain, and most shops are
Shut. Where to buy food, or just have a piss?
Finished a bread roll, an in-car breakfast
Bought snacks at a nearby filling station
First stop Talavera on the Tagus
Then Sierra de Gredos. It´s great fun
Speeding around the tight bends. The next town
Was Ávila, for Santa Teresa
Renowned. El Escorial next on list...
That San Lorenzo Monastery is some
Sight in the setting sunlight. Could see far-
Off Madrid in the distance. Ate churros.*
*Churros con chocolate - a sort of doughy long winding thing that is often eaten with thick gooey chocolate sauce.
Mon 12 October

1133 - Madrid and Toledo in one day, oh

This day could be the top day of the trip
In terms of sheer sights seen, I´d make a bet
The first thing that I had to do was slip
Out of the room so as not to upset
The three Spanish ladies sleeping in it!
(Don´t ask!) Then four hours exploring Madrid
A pleasure that I never thought I´d get...
The Spanish girls I have been adoring...
Their womanly shapes leave me imploring
Full-breasted, thin waists, wider at the hip
With lovely light brown skin. Makes me regret
Not meeting any so far whose speaking
Of English beats my Spanish... Chose to nip
Down to Toledo.* Walked till gone sunset.
*By car, of course!
Sun 11 October

Saturday 10 October 2009

1132 - The real Madrid

Woke in the car at 8. Fuentespina -
Thanks for a quiet night!* I had time, so
I detoured to lovely Segovia
On the way to Madrid. That´s not all, though -
Sierra de Guadarrama! To go
There by car was a great experience
Those wooded mountains! Madrileños go
To walk the shaded hillsides. Didn´t sense
Any foreigners but me. For my sins
I now had to drive to the heart of the
Capital, Madrid. Skyscrapers, Prado...
Seen quite a lot already, by car. Pence
And pounds, i.e. parking costs, may mean a
Shorter stay than planned. Shame to have to go...!
*I slept in the car in a quiet side street - something I´ll have to do a few more times yet before this holiday is through. I was going to stay 2 nights in this hostel from where I´m typing this - the Pop Hostel, calle de Spiritu Santo, Malasaña, Madrid´s student quarter, but because it´s costing 28 euros to park for each 24 hour period, I can´t afford to park for two nights. Instead of 15 euros a night for accommodation, it´s more like 43 euros. I think I´ll stay in Madrid till quite late tomorrow, sightseeing, by car if possible, and then I may as well drive to Toledo in the evening, park somewhere and get some sleep. then I can spend all day there on Monday, which is the Spanish National Day. There might be some interesting celebrations to watch!

1131 - Another day on the Spanish highway

Today I followed the old pilgrim trail
From Pamplona to Puente la Reina
Stood on the Roman bridge that told a tale
Of centuries of souls ever after
Part of the world, long as it lasts. Walkers
With rucksacks and sticks I saw there, and on
The road to Burgos - they were everywhere!
I said ´Hola´to some. They sat upon
Their haunches, resting, but I just drove on
To reach Burgos. The old town with its shells
On the calle de San Juan. Admired the
Cathedral, oh so intricate in stone
And El Cid´s statue! Before the light failed
Drove toward Madrid. Stopped, Fuentespina*
Fri 9 October
*Fuentespina - a small, pleasant town just off the N1, shortly after Aranda de Duero.

Thursday 8 October 2009

1130 - Tramping alone in Pamplona

At last - a good night´s sleep in the hired car
In the Camping Municipal, St-Jean
Although I didn´t dare to drive too far
Those Pyrenean winding roads were fun
But not for the cyclists or ´pelegrins´*
Of whom I saw a few as I drove by
After Valcarlos, the road just goes on
And on climbing, till Ibañeta, high
As it gets; then Roncesvalles; then my
Breakfast in Burguete; then Pamplona
Lunch from a supermarket, suburban
Peace and quiet. Reached the city; where shall I
Park? Under El Corte Inglés! Walked far
Today. My feet ache! Don´t ask me to run!
* Pelegrins is the French word for pilgrims. You see many of them walking from these parts on the Camino de Santiago, which takes them all the way to Santiago de Compostela, where I will be going later on in this holiday, but by car, of course - and after a number of detours!

1129 - Sleep deprived but still lovin´it

Last night I drank and smoked, met two French guys
Turned into a late night, surprisingly
I´d had no sleep the night before. Surprise
Can be bad, too. The car park constantly
Played loud classical music. Couldn´t see
A way to get to sleep in that hot car...
Even tried the beach, listening to the sea
As the sky lightened, but didn´t get far
Just one hour´s sleep, just before I left for
St Jean Pied de Port. The Pyrenees -
Green wooded hills, where dotted sparingly
Red and cream farmhouses that proudly share
Their Basque inheritance with passing eyes
All the way to Spain, where I soon will be
Wed 7 October

Tuesday 6 October 2009

1128 - Basking in the sun on the Côte Basque

Not Paris this time, no, cos this time it's
Much further south: I've seen the Pyrenees
From the plane, and the cliffs of Biarritz
I've even sunbathed on the beach. The sea's
Advancing towards me. 30 degrees
Celsius, or near, this afternoon; my skin
Is getting its share of Vitamin C's...
Hooray! The sun's back out; it was hidden
For a few minutes. All of a sudden
Several bikinis decided to quit,
Covering up, walking away; their striptease
Over for this year, maybe, now we're in
Deepest October. Didn't bring my shorts...
I'd love to have felt those waves crash on me!

Monday 5 October 2009

Temporary hiatus

Off for a couple of weeks to France, Spain and Portugal. Normal service will be resumed upon return.

1127 - Flightpath to Dreamland

It’s almost here! I’m sitting waiting for
The time to drive to Birmingham Airport
But first I’d really like to sleep, before
My odyssey begins. The sounds were fraught
Last night, below me, as that couple fought
With words and maybe more. Heard many bangs,
And none of amorous kind, though time has taught
That sleep is reduced when I’m feeling pangs
Of excitement or worry about things
Happening next day. A physical law:
Adrenalin kicks in; you can’t transport
Yourself to Dreamland. Feeling like a king
Before the battle that’ll save him or
Dethrone him, I await fate’s random sport

Sunday 4 October 2009

1126 - No kidding

A lovely lie in; then, with no breakfast,
Off out to collect Josie, taking her
To Pizza Hut with Pearl. Today’s the last
Time I’ll see Pearl in the old house. Yes. They’re
Selling it later on this month. That’s where
I bought my first house, but left, three years on
In ’96, leaving wife and kids there
In Burnage; a bedsit in Withington
Was my only lonely destination.
But though our family split, we parents cast
Our differences aside; tried to be fair
To the kids. And then, again, later on,
A split with Josie’s mum. But not downcast:
These kids are great fun to be with, oh yeah!

Saturday 3 October 2009

1125 - After reading all about northern Spain

It’s getting close, now, to my holiday
This morning I popped out to buy some stuff
A dictaphone: I’ll be able to say
My thoughts, record people and sounds. I’d love
To think up some songs or poems and shove
Them on it, then and there. Santiago,
Here I come, though by car, and from the south,
Down Porto way, and after one day, go
On to Coruña and Oviedo.
But before that, there’ll be a weekend stay
In Madrid. (Nightlife to make me feel rough!)
Then down the road I go to Toledo
Not forgetting Navarre, the Basque Country,
The Pyrenees, Biarritz… Stop! Enough!

Friday 2 October 2009

1124 - Safe European homes?

Hats off to world-famous British justice,
The envy of all benighted nations!
Examples of its recent victories -
Six years for the man who’d abused for months
And then killed his girlfriend’s two-year old son…
He should be out in three. The mother’s free
(She’s suffered enough.) Next, the old woman
Of seventy, done for assault on the
Teenager, part of a gang said to be
Throwing stones at her window. She got pissed
Off, jabbing him in the chest. Well, this sends
A good message out, eh? Society
Must not protect itself! Call the police
(…But don’t bother if the offender’s young)

Thursday 1 October 2009

1123 - Time for bed, said Zebedee

It’s Thursday evening, watching Question Time
Having begun recording ‘World War Three’
My aim’s to finish this song before I’m
Off on my holiday, late on Monday.
At least I have succeeded, despite the
Best efforts of Ryanair, to print out
My boarding pass. Walked to the library
At lunchtime to hand in some books. About
Parity between pound and euro. Ouch!
Got euros from the Post Office. Now I’m
Nearly ready to travel. On Friday
I need to book a hired car. When out
In Biarritz, I’ll drive it, start to climb
The Pyrenees. But now, bedtime for me!

1122 - Rain and Ryanair

A ‘rare’ rainy day in Manchester town
Thank God I was at work, watching drizzle
Through the window as the meeting wound down
While window-cleaners washed. Now de-sozzled
On mugs of tea, we worked with less hassle
Sat inside in our warm office. Can’t print
My Ryanair boarding card! A puzzle -
I’d just checked my online Amex statement
Which clearly showed my flight to France payment…
Yet their helpline girl said, with unseen frown,
“We don’t accept Amex.” Quickly guzzled
My sandwich and banana, and then went
To Central Library. Poems read round
And feedback given around the table